Plagued with starting issues

***GaryDoug*** · 07-05-2017, 05:14 PM

Turning the crank caused the flywheel ring gear to line up with the starter drive gear and let the solenoid operate with less current because it did not have to force the starter to rotate it's gear into place. I can't help but wonder if the ring gear is damaged, with some deformed or broken teeth. That would only be a problem when, by chance, you stopped the engine with the bad teeth in position to engage the starter gear.

Still, more likely it is a bad cable.

TN_Diablo · 07-05-2017, 06:24 PM

No offense but I disagree. I doubt the current in the coil changes at all. The Bendix and flywheel alignment means little to the coil. The Bendix gear is sort of flung at the flywheel by the twist of the motor so it does not restrict travel of the coil regardless of where it lands and as it spins is bound to engage the flywheel. If either gear were damaged you would certainly hear it when cranking normally and you hit that spot.

My money is on the simple $20 part that I've read about too many times and verified for myself is what causes the same symptoms.

Please don't replace your more expensive starter to find you still have the same intermittent issue.

***GaryDoug*** · 07-05-2017, 06:48 PM

I did not suggest that he replace his starter. He could however inspect the ring gear while turning the crank pulley. I bought a 1960 Mercedes 190SL in 1970 that had a banged up ring gear that would jam the starter drive gear occasionally. Nothing fixed the problem until I inspected the ring gear and saw the damage. The ring gear was cracked making a small space between two teeth at a greater separation. Replacing the ring gear fixed my problem. Apparently it wasn't loose enough to make it slip on the flywheel.

Note that I did type that I still think the issue is with the cables.

TN_Diablo · 07-05-2017, 07:20 PM

Sorry and as I said no offense was meant. I think either the slave OR a poor cable/connection could result in this but the way he described that it worked fine then didn't work then worked again later sounds just like my trouble with the slave and probably it changes with heat. I still don't believe it has anything to do with gear alignment and I doubt cables or it would manifest but not heal itself, poor connections possibly.

I guess I should have said don't replace an expensive starter or the battery cables until you have checked out that simple little slave solenoid and it's connections. I would say a battery 'cable' should not change but the connections can and do go bad, especially if they have those clamp type adapters on the ends which I hate. If you don't have a quality molded battery cables then do suspect that and consider getting a cable with the right terminations on each end to replace it.

When it clicks once it generally means the solenoid engaged but did not pass any current due to bad contacts. If it clicks repeatedly it generally means it engaged and drew enough current for the poor connections to drop out but then tried to re-engage and repeat the process over and over. Like a weak battery but in this case poor connections and I know my slave has exhibited both these symptoms when the problem manifested but everything else checked out fine.

***GaryDoug*** · 07-05-2017, 09:05 PM

"... The Bendix gear is sort of flung at the flywheel by the twist of the motor ..."

Another thing, this doesn't have a Bendix-type starter drive. There is no major twist from a spring or helical track in the drive as like some earlier cars and boats. It is just a solenoid that pulls on a lever that pushes out the starter drive gear with a very slight twist (less than 1/4 turn). The starter motor does not start running until the drive gear is almost fully extended with this type, unlike the Bendix type that runs the motor immediately and before the drive gear is extended. Sometimes this newer type is referred to as a "pre-engagement system".

"All modern starters rely on the solenoid to engage the starter drive with the ring gear of the flywheel. When the solenoid is energized, it operates a plunger or lever which forces the pinion into mesh with the ring gear. The pinion incorporates a one way clutch so that when the engine starts and runs it will not attempt to drive the starter motor at excessive RPM. Some older starter designs, such as the Bendix drive, used the rotational inertia of the pinion to force it along a helical groove cut into the starter drive-shaft, and thus no mechanical linkage with the solenoid was required."

baholtz · 07-05-2017, 09:30 PM

This will probably not help you but I figured I would throw it out there:

I had a skid steer that gave me problems simliar to yours. Turn the key and you could hear the starter engage the fly wheel but would not turn. Checked battery, no problems. Replaced the starter as I thought that was the culprit. Less than 2 hrs later, the head started leaking and required a top end rebuild. Looking back now, I think that the starter was only a ghost issue and I had a leaking head. Likely was getting antifreeze in the chamber and the starter wasn't able to make it compress....

Diesel motor on a skid steer - might not be relevant but who knows, it could be.

TN_Diablo · 07-05-2017, 10:21 PM

GaryDoug... I am willing to admit when wrong and not trying to start or continue an argument. The last couple starters I had apart had both the lever and the spiral twist and the bevel on the drive gear. I guess the lever does the flinging out but the twist still helps with engagement. So I stand corrected.

Coil current will not change though weather they line up or not. So it won't click like a dead battery if in fact it has power it should clunk as the gear (still I think considered a Bendix) bashes the ring gear. I think the combination is a pre-engagement Bendix but I'm no longer sure about that and will educate myself as you have. And the starter motor does not get power unlike an old fashioned Bendix that only threw the gear out if the motor spun.

I am sure of the troubles with the slave relay and insist it could still be the problem. We can't sit in the other guys boat to know what he hears but on mine a faint click or rapid click is different to my ear than the true clunk of the solenoid on the starter motor. My slave will make a little click and then nothing else happens. It will make a few rapid clicks and nothing else happens. Then suddenly it will work just fine. The starter will clunk harder even with a dead battery where it has not enough power to turn the motor.

To identify the sounds and discern between them may mean disconnecting cables and listening to the various components or jumping those components with power to hear them. Easy enough to do but be very mindful of what's hot and when and do not short anything to ground like the engine block.

MTH · 07-06-2017, 08:50 PM

I need to add a detail I forgot about through all this. We stopped twice on the river a couple days ago. The second stop is when it would not fire up again, but after the first stop something odd happened. It fired right up and we proceeded to leave the beach at idle, when I started to give it decent throttle to take off and get on plane it suddenly lost all power and died. I did start up right after again, we took off and it ran fine. That was the first time that's happened, and it didn't happen again.