Plagued with starting issues
 

I will gladly take any advice you guys are willing to give and try anything to figure out my starting issues. Boat will not start probably 3 out of 4 times when trying. Battery is new. Starter is new OEM Mercruiser. Before replacing the starter and battery it would not hardly ever start. Now I can bump the key a few times pretty quickly and usually it will start maybe third or fourth try.

When it won't start it makes the dreaded rapid tapping noise, sounds like not enough voltage right? I hooked up a jump box to the battery just to be sure, same story, and jump box shows battery at 85% charge anyway. When I replaced the starter I checked all the wire ends, no corrosion or issues that I could see, everything looked fine.

I was going to check the starter relay, but I can't find one anywhere and I'm not sure this setup uses one, where would I look for one if there is one? This is a 5.7 mercruiser carbed setup. This issue is driving me crazy, I want this boat to be reliable so I can take it anywhere and not worry about it starting. It runs perfect after it starts... Somebody point me in the right direction!

Thanks for any help!

Matt

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

No fun.... did you check the ignition switch? I know several members have replaced theirs over the years.

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Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I have not. Where is it located and how do I check it?

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Sounds like its a bad solenoid. You can replace it your self for less than $50 i had the same issue.

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Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Are we talking the starter solenoid? Located on the starter? Or separate slave solenoid located somewhere else?

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Probably the starter solenoid.


Thanks.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Is it possible to be bad even though it's new? It was just replaced with the starter, they came together as one assembly. Let me know and thanks for the help!

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Maby... Heres how to remove it. I did it on mine. Depending on how old your starter is it will be easy to remove if its not very old. Use a t5 t6 or t7 female torque screw. Depending on were your starter is, you may have to remove the starter. They usually come in packs anyway.

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Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

If there is a rapid clicking sound, I doubt the solenoid is the culprit. It sounds like not enough current is getting to the starter. Even though you checked the cable ends, they could still be bad inside, where the copper cable contacts the terminal. The starter solenoid is on top of the starter and is not easily separated. You would need to remove the starter and it would be best to replace them both, but you have already done that. I would just replace both cables.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I would use jumper cables from the battery to the starter to rule out any issue with those cables. Leave everything connected, just add the jumpers.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Thank you, that makes sense.

Great idea! Definitely going to try this. Thank you.

I'll keep you guys posted, I want to get this sorted out so bad.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Keep in mind that jumper cables won't carry as much current as the ones in the boat, but if it helps somewhat, that's a good indication that a cable or two is bad. They don't last as long in a boat as in a car because of the dampness.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

The safe way to go about this is to use a voltmeter. Connect the black lead of the voltmeter directly to the negative terminal of the starting battery. Connect the red lead of the voltmeter to the heavy red wire connected on the starter. The voltmeter should read battery voltage (>12V). Turn the key to start and observe the voltmeter, it may dip below 6V for a brief moment while cranking but should recover to above 9V quickly. If the starter does not crank and the voltage stayed above 9V then the problem is in the start signal. Move the red lead on the voltmeter to the "start" terminal (Yel/Red) on the starter solenoid. Turn the key to start and observe the voltmeter, it should read battery voltage. If it reads 12V and doesn't crank then you have a bad starter or starter solenoid. If the voltmeter reads less than battery voltage when turning the switch to start then the next are of interest is the slave solenoid. Move the red lead on the Voltmeter to the heavy red/purp wire on the slave solenoid. The voltmeter should read battery voltage at all times. If it reads less than battery voltage then the problem is the circuit breaker with the red button on the motor. If it reads battery voltage at all times then move the red lead to the heavy Yel/red wire on the slave solenoid, turn the switch to "start" and observe the voltmeter. You should hear the slave solenoid click and the Voltmeter should read battery voltage. If you hear the click but do not read battery voltage then you have a bad slave solenoid. If you do not hear the click then move the red voltmeter lead to the small yellow/red wire on the slave solenoid. Turn the switch to "start", the voltmeter should read battery voltage. If it does not read battery voltage then move the red voltmeter lead to the "S" terminal on the back of the starter switch. Turn the switch to "start", the voltmeter should read battery voltage. If it doesn't then the start switch is bad. If it does the the problem is either the wiring from the switch to the big connector on the motor or the neutral safety switch in the shifter. Good luck.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I struggled with starting issues for years with a used boat, 5.7L Mercruiser MPI. Here is what I found and replaced in order:

-bad connection at the ignition switch, I temporarily ran a new wire directly from the battery. Not recommended for long term as you bypass the fuses, but this got it started and going on one day stranded on the lake. I eventually re-wired it.

-You will either have a slave solenoid or a relay on the top of the engine, those are cheap and easy to replace. My relay was bad and caused another long day on the lake.

-There is a 90AMP fuse on starter solenoid, that was burnt and corroded and prevented my starter from engaging (clicked only) unless the battery was above 75% charged. I replaced that and replaced the cable ends, removed all corrosion at all points and reconnected. This fix, I feel, had the biggest improvement. I saw it looked bad but never did anything about it. With the other repairs, I would have to turn the key several times before the click would amount to anything. This fix made the biggest impact.

After those 3 things the boat turned over smoothly every time.

By they way, these repairs occurred over several years, and several years of testing solenoids, measuring / observing voltages over this, from here to there, upside down in the engine compartment, getting it to work sometimes but not every time. The slave solenoid/relay is a cheap quick fix. Running a wire from the battery to the ignition took 5 minutes. The starter fuse, and cables took a couple hours. I wish I skipped the many many hours of diagnostics, sweat, knocks on the head and knuckles etc, and instead just fixed those 3 things.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I just noticed mine is not currently using the 90amp fuse on the starter that I see in most pictures. How will this affect it?

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

It's protective, it may be somewhere else on that line but generally it is right at the solenoid on the starter. There is usually a 30A breaker at the top of the engine as well, right at the slave solenoid or relay. It should not be a contributor to your issues if it is not there.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Check the ground connection at the back of the motor. And make sure the starter is tight. I had problems starting for a few months. After changing starters , solenoids and ignition switches turned out it was a bad ground connection

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Hello, Similar issues first time out this year and will share what I've learned/determined. My boat is one of the last Diablo's with key switch btw, yours may be similar.

Several years ago I had my slave solenoid (on the motor) just click at times. But usually if you turned the key and let it click a few times the boat would start. I took it all apart and cleaned everything up and had not had any trouble again until recently.

And my key switch was always a little flaky but had been getting worse. Then trip before last my brother-in-law was helping me and a bit too aggressive and the key just went round and round so I knew it was bad for sure now. I tried jumping from the battery to start but it still just clicked or buzzed and would not start.

Once I had the ignition back on, gauges come alive, I then just bridged from the battery cable at the starter to the coil energize input and the boat started fine every time. So the problems were ahead of the starter/solenoid assembly.

Before the next trip I replaced my key switch with a Sierra MP41040 4 position key switch. Identical to the one in the boat and if you look closely there is a little hole that you can insert a paper clip and pop the tumblers out. This may be true of most variations on these switches. In any case I was able to put my original tumbler with my nice gold plated Mariah key in the new switch assembly. It was a little tricky to hold the metal sleeve in place while inserting the other tumbler so it would click in place but not difficult. Problem #1 solved.

The next trip out everything seemed A OK until late in the afternoon and wouldn't you know it is back to the click but no start. Sometimes clicking rapidly like a dead battery. I thought no way we did not even have anything on but the depth finder. So I try the bridge from the batt cable to the solenoid post and it fires right up.

Bridging the two posts on the slave solenoid and it will also crank just fine. Problem #2 is the slave again. My opinion is that sometimes when the motor is hot the slave solenoid acts up and gives a weak connection. It may just click it may buzz a little but that thing is troublesome. I could bend the tabs and pull it all apart again but is there another brand that is a better alternative and more reliable than the OE Mercury? I will rather replace a $20 part this time.

I should mention how while troubleshooting my No-Start back home it took me a while to realize my lovely wife who pulled the boat back on the trailer didn't bother to put the shift all the way into Neutral. I was tracking the signal again thinking what now it has a brand new switch what else is bad, the safety switch now?, before it came to me. It looked like it was in Neutral but the button had not popped out so check for the obvious also.

My boat ran great once started, the trim tabs are working lovely, all but my tach which has frozen in place again is in good shape. I will attack that and the slave in a couple days, then hope to get back next time with a trouble free boat.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Update! I can't thank you guys enough for your responses and ideas.

After running some tests we found extremely high resistance through the battery switch, so it's going to get replaced first then retest. I'm taking this opportunity to convert to a dual battery setup! New switch and deep cycle battery are getting added in tonight. I hope that's all it needs.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

MTH,

Take some pictures, I've been wanting to go dual battery for awhile now...but haven't quite come up with a layout/wiring diagram.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Same here

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Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Another update, got a new switch on and found out a couple things. First of all, don't go cheapo on boat parts lol. All I had available at the time was an off-brand switch and it burned up trying to get power to turn this 5.7 after a couple tries. Literally a small puff of smoke came out of it haha.

Second thing is that it burned up my starter too. We bypassed the switch and boat still won't start. SO I have a Perko switch on order and a new starter, and then this thing should be starting normally once again.

I'm so ready to just enjoy the boat for once...

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

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Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Good morning everyone, I have a 2000 shabah 182 I believe. Having some issues starting. I replaced the starter and still having issues. I turn the key and get a single click and nothing else. Every 10 or so attempts the engine will kick over. Any ideas?

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

It would be best to start a new topic since this one has morphed into a battery wiring upgrade thing.

Your issue sounds exactly like the OP's initial problem which was apparently a defective battery switch.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

That sounds like the slave solenoid rather than the starter. It's a $20 part and I was asking if there was an alternative to the OE that worked better. I think the same thing is used on 4 and 6 cylinder engines. You r boat is probably very close to mine with one of those two engines.

Probably Part #96158T I described my trouble with up above.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

She's back in business. I meant to take some pictures but there's not much to see to be honest, just a couple batteries next to each other and some wiring to a new Perko switch.

I broke the old switch apart to see inside and didn't see much going on. No real noticeable corrosion. It did feel a little loose, maybe it was worn out and not always making good connection? Hard to say. I have the batteries on charge now and am looking forward to the weekend!

Thanks again everyone for the help.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Well the saga continues. Took the boat out yesterday, started perfect at the dock, even rode around a while and beached for about an hour, then started fine after. Rode around more and beached for about an hour and a half, sure enough went to leave and got the rapid clicking noise and no start.

I tried everything I could think from switching batteries, hooking up a jump box, etc etc... only one thing I did finally got it to start. I got the crank to turn by hand, not much, I moved it maybe an inch in rotation. Then the next try the boat fired right up.

Someone throw some ideas at me about what could be going on. I'm thinking this issue is unrelated to the low voltage/high resistance issue I was having before.

Is vapor lock a possibility? After doing more reading I'm leaning towards that... Turning the crank by hand just a little got it to fire finally. I don't know why. I'm on the edge of selling the thing and letting someone else sort it out lol! It's a shame cause it's a beautiful boat and in great shape.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Turning the crank slightly by hand was most likely just a coincidence. If the motor will not crank over with the starter than you are still having an electrical problem. You really need to use a voltmeter to isolate the intermittent no crank issue. Intermittent electrical issues are the most maddening and difficult to properly diagnose. See my earlier post for a step by step diagnosis guide. If you do not feel comfortable with using a voltmeter then maybe you could pay a pro to ride around with you for an hour or two until you can reproduce the issue.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Agree turning the crank was just coincidence.

My money is on the slave solenoid I mentioned above and may be the same part #. I bet you have the same set-up as Mercury used this on most engines back then. You can carefully jump the two main (bigger wires under plastic protector) terminals for power on the slave with the ignition on or you can jump power from the battery to the solenoid on the starter, whichever is easier to reach and see if it turns over fine. I bet it will and that is what I've done a couple times when it was acting up and would just click. What I did not try was just giving the start wire (red/white I think from the ignition) and also the ground wire (these are the two smaller wires that push on) a wiggle to see if it is no more than a bad connection.

My last trip out mine did not give me a hint of trouble. It may have just been the terminals which I did 'exercise' the connections after coming home and looking for problems again. Of course I did NOT find any but I think I will just get a replacement for $20 for the next time it does act up. Easily changed with a couple basic tools.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Turning the crank caused the flywheel ring gear to line up with the starter drive gear and let the solenoid operate with less current because it did not have to force the starter to rotate it's gear into place. I can't help but wonder if the ring gear is damaged, with some deformed or broken teeth. That would only be a problem when, by chance, you stopped the engine with the bad teeth in position to engage the starter gear.

Still, more likely it is a bad cable.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

No offense but I disagree. I doubt the current in the coil changes at all. The Bendix and flywheel alignment means little to the coil. The Bendix gear is sort of flung at the flywheel by the twist of the motor so it does not restrict travel of the coil regardless of where it lands and as it spins is bound to engage the flywheel. If either gear were damaged you would certainly hear it when cranking normally and you hit that spot.

My money is on the simple $20 part that I've read about too many times and verified for myself is what causes the same symptoms.

Please don't replace your more expensive starter to find you still have the same intermittent issue.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I did not suggest that he replace his starter. He could however inspect the ring gear while turning the crank pulley. I bought a 1960 Mercedes 190SL in 1970 that had a banged up ring gear that would jam the starter drive gear occasionally. Nothing fixed the problem until I inspected the ring gear and saw the damage. The ring gear was cracked making a small space between two teeth at a greater separation. Replacing the ring gear fixed my problem. Apparently it wasn't loose enough to make it slip on the flywheel.

Note that I did type that I still think the issue is with the cables.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Sorry and as I said no offense was meant. I think either the slave OR a poor cable/connection could result in this but the way he described that it worked fine then didn't work then worked again later sounds just like my trouble with the slave and probably it changes with heat. I still don't believe it has anything to do with gear alignment and I doubt cables or it would manifest but not heal itself, poor connections possibly.

I guess I should have said don't replace an expensive starter or the battery cables until you have checked out that simple little slave solenoid and it's connections. I would say a battery 'cable' should not change but the connections can and do go bad, especially if they have those clamp type adapters on the ends which I hate. If you don't have a quality molded battery cables then do suspect that and consider getting a cable with the right terminations on each end to replace it.

When it clicks once it generally means the solenoid engaged but did not pass any current due to bad contacts. If it clicks repeatedly it generally means it engaged and drew enough current for the poor connections to drop out but then tried to re-engage and repeat the process over and over. Like a weak battery but in this case poor connections and I know my slave has exhibited both these symptoms when the problem manifested but everything else checked out fine.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

"... The Bendix gear is sort of flung at the flywheel by the twist of the motor ..."

Another thing, this doesn't have a Bendix-type starter drive. There is no major twist from a spring or helical track in the drive as like some earlier cars and boats. It is just a solenoid that pulls on a lever that pushes out the starter drive gear with a very slight twist (less than 1/4 turn). The starter motor does not start running until the drive gear is almost fully extended with this type, unlike the Bendix type that runs the motor immediately and before the drive gear is extended. Sometimes this newer type is referred to as a "pre-engagement system".

"All modern starters rely on the solenoid to engage the starter drive with the ring gear of the flywheel. When the solenoid is energized, it operates a plunger or lever which forces the pinion into mesh with the ring gear. The pinion incorporates a one way clutch so that when the engine starts and runs it will not attempt to drive the starter motor at excessive RPM. Some older starter designs, such as the Bendix drive, used the rotational inertia of the pinion to force it along a helical groove cut into the starter drive-shaft, and thus no mechanical linkage with the solenoid was required."

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

This will probably not help you but I figured I would throw it out there:

I had a skid steer that gave me problems simliar to yours. Turn the key and you could hear the starter engage the fly wheel but would not turn. Checked battery, no problems. Replaced the starter as I thought that was the culprit. Less than 2 hrs later, the head started leaking and required a top end rebuild. Looking back now, I think that the starter was only a ghost issue and I had a leaking head. Likely was getting antifreeze in the chamber and the starter wasn't able to make it compress....

Diesel motor on a skid steer - might not be relevant but who knows, it could be.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

GaryDoug... I am willing to admit when wrong and not trying to start or continue an argument. The last couple starters I had apart had both the lever and the spiral twist and the bevel on the drive gear. I guess the lever does the flinging out but the twist still helps with engagement. So I stand corrected.

Coil current will not change though weather they line up or not. So it won't click like a dead battery if in fact it has power it should clunk as the gear (still I think considered a Bendix) bashes the ring gear. I think the combination is a pre-engagement Bendix but I'm no longer sure about that and will educate myself as you have. And the starter motor does not get power unlike an old fashioned Bendix that only threw the gear out if the motor spun.

I am sure of the troubles with the slave relay and insist it could still be the problem. We can't sit in the other guys boat to know what he hears but on mine a faint click or rapid click is different to my ear than the true clunk of the solenoid on the starter motor. My slave will make a little click and then nothing else happens. It will make a few rapid clicks and nothing else happens. Then suddenly it will work just fine. The starter will clunk harder even with a dead battery where it has not enough power to turn the motor.

To identify the sounds and discern between them may mean disconnecting cables and listening to the various components or jumping those components with power to hear them. Easy enough to do but be very mindful of what's hot and when and do not short anything to ground like the engine block.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

I need to add a detail I forgot about through all this. We stopped twice on the river a couple days ago. The second stop is when it would not fire up again, but after the first stop something odd happened. It fired right up and we proceeded to leave the beach at idle, when I started to give it decent throttle to take off and get on plane it suddenly lost all power and died. I did start up right after again, we took off and it ran fine. That was the first time that's happened, and it didn't happen again.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

That sounds like a poor connection, maybe power to your ignition switch or the switch itself. Just a guess though.

Re: Plagued with starting issues
 

Do I have to go behind the shifter to replace neutral switch